Obama Loves Y’all, And Then Some…

The most basic tool of propaganda is omission. “Out of sight, out of mind”…unless that is too conceptual and too anchored in its bias, to be easily generalized to apply to this practice.

I tell y’all, we are are being whipped by one consequential “¿white lie” one distortion, obfuscation, misrepresentation, etc, and one omission at a time; en junto into unthinking pulp, day after day. After a while it all ads up to unregistered by the public majority fiascos — “unregistered” clearly the key. Creating the cliff in the first place, then using it to divest himself of leverage — who here believes that he would actually veto a Republican laid feast for War, Wall Street and their client/employer corporations?

The mentality of partisan zombies is such that whenever they are sold out by their leaders, they reduce to the infantilism of bundles of joy in a peek-a-boo game, closing their eyes shut behind their palms and believing themselves invisible… truth, reality, begone! Denial, omission and refusal, all kick into gear and  the ”Republicans made him do it” petard is trotted out to collapse the access to this Obama laid bankers banquet, bristling with drones, missiles and rife with psycho-sociopathy, and then some…

I think it would be wise for us to start collecting the bits and pieces of likely policies which this administration hopes to deliver as his offerings to his future employers for helping in his reelection effort, and disseminate links liberally.

 

Here are two things, off the bat, to expect in the next 2-3 quarters:

 

1)

“President Barack Obama said Tuesday that while tax rates must go up for a “fiscal cliff” deal, it may be possible to lower rates at the top end of the scale late next year as part of tax reforms that would close loopholes and limit deductions.

“Let’s let those go up,” Obama told Bloomberg Television in an interview, referring to tax rates for the wealthiest Americans.”

“And then let’s set up a process with a time certain, at the end of 2013 or the fall of 2013, where we work on tax reform, we look at what loopholes and deduction both Democrats and Republicans are willing to close, and it’s possible that we may be able to lower rates by broadening the base at that point.” 

“The remarks, which reiterated a position that White House officials have expressed privately, is designed to give Republicans an opportunity to lower rates for the rich, but only after they rise at year’s end when Bush-era tax cuts expire.” - GOP ‘fiscal cliff’ plan echoes failed budget talks

one major way being: 

2)

Follow these dots:

Obama’s Immigration Reform Push To Begin This Month

source: Obama’s Immigration Reform Push To Begin This Month – HuffPo

Obama’s high-tech labor lies

We have no shortage of skilled engineers. Corporations would just rather import foreign ones on lower wages
source: Obama’s high-tech labor lies – Salon.com

Obama touts H-1B visas after dismissing woman’s objections

source: Obama touts H-1B visas after dismissing woman’s objections | The Daily Caller

Removing H-1B visa quotas will create American jobs

source: Removing H-1B visa quotas will create American jobs | Fox News

 

Do we tell the Obombies zombies that Fox aproves of Obama’s anti worker policies, fashioned by Clinton’s cadre of corporatist welfare queens and leeches? Fuggetaboutit!

Petition the media, the Maddows, and the rest of the anointed courtiers to the kleptocrats to get with it, or raise a petition for self respecting persons to boycott all MSM talkingheads?

Petition Trumka to get off his arse, or find a run around to this 1% sycophant, to reach the union membership by other means?

Start compiling/editing our own “documentaries” for Youtube?

Think…

In short: where to best direct our meager individual resources? As is, we’re about as sophisticated about it all as artisans at Machu Picchu relative to China’s manufacturing efficiencies — bless all their hearts, and ours—so really, whuzzup and whereto?

 

 

 

Related posts:

  1. Obama 2012 Smacks Down Jim Clyburn For Criticizing Bain & Vampire Equity Firms, Obama Supporters Pretend Not to Notice
  2. Obama Sells Out Labor and the Environment … Again
  3. Growth of Income Inequality Is Worse Under Obama than Bush
  4. Trumka and Obama: “Talking Loud and Saying Nothing”
  5. Obama Gave It All Away — Jill Stein: The Bi-Partisan Fiscal Scam
  • wendydavis

    My guess is that it’s Disqus that slows things down; I’ve experienced it at other sites.

    I applaud you for not banishing the person who isn’t so easy to put up with, but as you say, Johan’s goodwill may wane, (I’ve experienced the same, lol.)

    At FDL, the cluckers are if possible, even *more* strident about minimizing or marginalizing Obomba’s craven evil; not until they are personally and especially, financially, affected will the light begin to dawn. And even then, they may squawk and cluck, but still vote for ‘LOTE’ Dems in the midterms. There are any number of diarists who make plans about reforming from the inside, o: what a sucker’s game it is! ;o)

    Really, it’s a war over there between the front-page bots, and my.fdl-ers, save for a few status quo thinkers. But so many good uns have been banned, and some left on their own steam, that it’s scarcely worth posting except that in the google cache, fdl may collect hits for ya. Dunno, but I feel crap about still being there still, but there I am, and there are still good and true folks standing. Guess I’m still a bit of a cash cow for Jane, else….

    But why I came by is to say that imo, electoral politics won’t provide any opportunity for the massive change we need, and I’m sincerely jazzed at the expansiveness of Idle No More. It’s no longer just about Harper’s C-45 law, or Chief Spence, broken treaties with First Nations, but…everything. If we can stir in OWS, workers and others globally, it may really prove to be the real deal.

    Adbusters are also jazzed, but they have up a column by Bill McKibben; hope the movement will steer clear of veal-penning.

    http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2012/12/27/one-heartbeat-one-tribe-a-peaceful-indigenous-revolution/

    http://my.firedoglake.com/wendydavis/2013/01/17/idle-no-more-indigenous-elders-are-requesting-our-help/

    Not to blog whore, but I just wanted you to know. My trip has always been to convince folks that we are they, from the Indigenous at the side meetings at Rio 20+1 onward. That the Zapatistas came out on the solstice…and lots happened on that date with Idle, says to me that to abjure spirituality in a global movement is just plain daft. We need to stoke our imaginations and accept all who really are…Awakening to higher consciousness.

    Off my saopbox now; my best to all,
    wd

    • Robert Alexander Dumas

      There once was a time when you lent creedence to my abilities as a judge of character. Todd is a piece of shit…………when he is convicted of prisoner abuse, I’ll email you the news blurb from bumfuck Kentucky along with my I told you so. Hope you and Steve are well, things are good here.

      • wendydavis

        Thanks for blowing by my other points and making it all about Todd, etc. What does his character have to do with any of it? You read McMurphy and his reasoning, as did I. I liked it; I’ve flagged exactly one comment ever at fdl, and maybe once at the Cafe, never anywhere else. I think that comments, no matter how hollow, stupid, or mean…stand for themselves, and can teach other readers something. That’s all.

        Glad things are good for you; here…well…never mind. ;o)

        • Robert Alexander Dumas

          Sorry. Honestly. Wasn’t trying to pick a fight.

          Nonetheless; I’ll stand on my previous comments.

    • http://mosquitocloud.net/ aprescoup

      “…electoral politics won’t provide any opportunity for the massive change we need…”

      I’m not sure how that can be true, unless absolute anarchy becomes the permanent condition. Anarchism is not so much the absence of government but the rejection of a government incapable of justifying itself. OWS was snookered into the 100% consensus trap and died on the vine pursuing 100% tyranny of the minority by rule of filibuster. WTF?

      Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos heads up the Clandestine Indigenous Revolutionary Committee. I’m not sure, but it would stretch belief to imagine the committee as being a “unelected” Junta.

      Lessons in organization and dignity from the Zapatistashttp://wagingnonviolence.org/2013/01/lesson-in-organization-and-presence-from-the-zapatistas/

      I see you’re churning out essays for the kennel, three, top of the Recommended Diaries list, today alone! Keep it up, and you’re always welcome to post at MC as well!

  • Johan Meyer

    Perhaps we need to play Dem apologetists—Obama’s policies are so good that even Fox has seen the light!

    This will also divide the dems, as hatred for fox isn’t something to be turned on/off…

    • http://mosquitocloud.net/ aprescoup

      Agreed. Whatever we’re doing now seems to resonate little with the internet public. We need a psychologist at MC.

      BTW, the site loads turtle slow, any ideas?

      • Johan Meyer

        1st, slow site: I find that videos slow things down—try to limit them to no more than 2 per page. This page has four—three on the right and the main one. A hyperlink for a dedicated page for each video will load faster.

        Which internet public? This is part of my skepticism (my bet with you is still on for February) of slogans. If we can make a solid presentation, and work a small group of people through the arguments, such that they make the arguments their own, and develop on these arguments, then ‘it’/we can grow as a phenomenon.

        Some indicators that we do in fact resonate:
        1. The elderly leftists are tired of the BS.
        2. The middle aged leftists are in a funk, but oppose us without argument. (This is the leaded fuel generation… although the implications for their old age is also frightening—they don’t want to accept that bad things are coming.) They ‘prevail’ because of gatekeeper support.

        The worrying question is the younger leftists—where are they? Are they too poor for internet, or completely disgusted, or too busy working to make ends meet? Or did the Bush years really create a generation of fascists?

        Another concern is that we are reposting a lot of content—content that is valuable to repost, but we aren’t generating a great deal of new material, yet we all have plenty of ideas. I’ll try to post a guide on writing good articles and argumentative comments tomorrow evening—we tend to forget the basics. And developing an argument to the point that it can be tested is useful.

        • http://mosquitocloud.net/ aprescoup

          “This is the leaded fuel generation..” I like that. :)

          The younger generation seems AWOL, and yet they should be the catalyst.

          At least in the French speaking neck of your woods they seemed to have won some concessions, have then fallen back some, and now ASSE is urging that, “Now is the time for overcoming old divides by building new alliances” with indigenous Canadians…I wonder, but perhaps even when the issues seem more provincialized the important thing is to keep the spirit alive.

          A guide would be helpful in developing/presenting solid arguments. The media’s incessant repetition of Guns, God and Gays as primary topics, aimed to distract and divide, needs to be countered with repetition of the issues we may want to settle on as most potent in general. The other overwhelming obstacle is mindless partisan tribalism – to deal with that we may need a shrink’s advice…

          • RobeAlexander Dumasrt

            You guys are going to allow posts by pieces of shit like “little Todd”? Really?

            • Southernfink

              I have been wondering the same thing ,maybe I should take up the Aprez offer and become a moderator on this site…it would be fun to just simply remove all his replies to comments….

              • Robert Alexander Dumas

                You”ve got my vote SF.

              • http://mosquitocloud.net/ aprescoup

                I’ll defer to the limits of Johan’s patience, while suggesting that the rest of us ignore TS, at least at MC.

              • Southernfink

                Agreed , I am all for starving TS.

            • http://mosquitocloud.net/ mc.murphy

              RAD,

              I’ve been” moderated” off of so many sites, killed dead, that doing so to another, by means other than not engaging the troll, is not something I’m overeager to do.

              Even though The Shiller is one of the most inane trolls we’ve had the jaw dropping and googly eyed “pleasure” to encounter, I figure that whomever engages him has a reason to do so. Moreover: “sticks and stones…”

              While the idea of playing pixel God is tempting, I’m a strong proponent of participatory democracy, which is also why MC has no ToS to orient our behavior…

              Presently, Johan is going through the paces with the troll. Once he’s through with his experiment/experience, or whomever will feel overly put upon by the corrections officer, could put up a pyre post for the Toddler and we could all vote on whether to burn his arse, or not, and perhaps discuss “housekeeping” in general.

              Thoughts?

              • Robert Alexander Dumas

                Very noble Mcmurph;

                My thoughts?

                Fuck Todd and all like him.

                RAD

              • http://mosquitocloud.net/ aprescoup

                It’s not about being noble. If anything, it’s about not being unduly authoritarian, when the obvious remedy is not to engage.

                If that fails to rob the troll of his oxygen, then by all means…

        • Southernfink

          Some good valid points in there Johan ,are the young too poor to take to the internet and some will be no doubt or perhaps when they do have the cash and income other things become their priorities instead.

          • Todd Scheller

            The young are willing to take on the internet, and then kill themselves when caught ala Aaron Swartz. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime, ala Bradley Manning.

            • Johan Meyer

              Two questions. With regards to Mr Manning, do you consider imprisonment the suitable punishment within the framework of the law, or, as is generally judged to have actually occurred, torture as well?

              With regards to Swartz, do you support presumption of innocence until conviction, or not? I’ve seen plenty of self-destructive behaviour in the face of prosecution, even when there was no actus reus, let alone mens rea.

              Then again, certain police interrogation tactics do tend to produce confessions in the innocent, e.g. After 14 hours of interrogation in a small,
              windowless room, Kevin Fox simply gave up. He knew he hadn’t
              sexually assaulted or murdered his 3-year-old daughter, but police
              had rejected his requests for a lawyer and told him they would
              arrange for inmates to rape him in jail, according to court
              records.
              .

              I’ve seen a plea bargain go down, and it was dirty; in that matter, the facts were such that the police, ‘victim’ and prosecutor were liable, as they had no protections pursuant to sections 20 and 20.1 (Canada), but the defendant was poor, had a public defender, and a previous conviction (for resisting a police sexual assault—again, 20 and 20.1 are jokes).

              What is interesting is that a generation is so unaccustomed to prison—I’m reminded (you are a (former?) prison guard) of a story that an old prison guard relative told me once—guy writes a fake check for a measly sum, and strings himself up before his court appearance, where the minor aspect of the crime was such (in the guard/relative’s view) as to be given time served. It strikes me that this is a generation not accustomed to prison.

              Another matter—this is my curiosity—what would you consider the appropriate ‘time’ (punishment—I assume that you would want to hold state personnel accountable for crimes they perpetrate also when the crimes are part of policy) for the military and civilian oversight personnel in Haiti? They are responsible for the 2004 coup, the resulting cocaine trade (Guy Philippe is in all probability guilty, but him aside, the combined statements by Claude Bucher and the DEA will suffice for a freely made, interrogation free confession), pedophilia (RCMP training known Haitian pedophiles from the disbanded Haitian National Army as police chiefs; sending in the known pedophiles of the Sri Lankan army as peace keepers), fraud (2006 census being first in 24 years, instead of in 3 years), terrorism (militarily occupying a public university to shut it down; shooting infants to death in their own homes; planting weapons on their murder victims, often in front of news cameras—I could send you the footage if you’d like; rearming the FRAPH death squads), and so fourth?

              • Todd Scheller

                Manning knew he was violating the law and that if caught he would be imprisoned pending a trial to determine his guilt. He chose to violate the law. I have yet to see any report that would prove that he was TORTURED. What I have seen is reports of standard treatment of an inmate that makes statements of being SUICIDAL.
                I am currently a Correctional Officer, how do we have a generation.
                Where did I again state that Swartz was guilty? I simply pointed out the fact that he committed SUICIDE before his trial.
                Really could care less what they do in Canada, I am not Canadian.
                How do we have a generation that is “so unaccustomed to prison” when we have nearly 1% of the population incarcerated?

              • Johan Meyer

                Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier’s arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

                “The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence,” Mendez writes.
                We can argue as to whether that constitutes torture; I do hold it as such, though I’d respect your opinion if you don’t.

                The young are willing to take on the internet, and then kill themselves when caught ala Aaron Swartz. Sounds like an insinuation of guilt to me.

                The white population (I should have been more specific) is largely unaccustomed to prison—the bulk (per capita) of the prison population is black. But, yes, I stand corrected, foolish comment of mine.

              • Todd Scheller

                Read your quote again. Where does it state TORTURE?
                If that is what the written word sounds like, then I suggest you take a remedial reading class.

                The young are willing to take on the internet, and then kill themselves when caught ala Aaron Swartz.

                What doe the underlined phrase mean to you?

              • Johan Meyer

                The underlined phrase was understood well enough. I’ll underline the relevant part:

                The young are willing to take on the internet, and then kill themselves when caught ala Aaron Swartz.

                I read the euphemism ‘mistreated’ as torture, ala the Kubark manuals.

                About this generation and prison, I’ll make another note—the prisoner population is growing old, so my original comment wasn’t that far off the mark:
                http://www.irp.wisc.edu/newsevents/workshops/2011/participants/papers/6-BushwayTsaoSmith.pdf
                See page 40—it seems to be the end of the leaded fuel crime wave.
                The average inmate age is now 39 years:
                http://www.bop.gov/news/quick.jsp

              • Todd Scheller

                Johan,
                Go back and read SouthernFinks original claim again genius.
                You do understand that words mean things in the English Language. Was Manning waterboarded? Chinese water torture? None of that happened, he was stripped of his possessions because he made SUICIDAL COMMENTS.
                MEDIAN age of the prison population means what?
                BOP data is data applicable to only the Federal Prisons. Which only accounts for 217,815 of the entire 2.5 MILLION people incarcerated. Try to know what the numbers you are using are telling you.
                From http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p11.pdf
                “About 61% of the sentenced prison population in 2011 was
                age 39 or younger.” So please explain to me how if 61% of the inmates are younger than your average, how that average holds true for all Correctional Agencies?

              • Johan Meyer

                Thanks for the data. Notice table eight (page 8)—those are rates of total incarceration (state and federal). The reason that I was right, despite not using total data, is that the federal system is a good statistical sample of the total population. Had the federal government had radically different policies from the states, the age profile might have been substantially different. If you are familiar with the web site “Watt’s Up,” that guy makes the same mistake in his “Klieg this data” post, that you made here. If you want, I could set up a little statistical exercise with free software, to illustrate the problem.

                Second thing—I gave average (MEAN, or Average, to use the term they used) age (granted, using federal data), not MEDIAN. Go check. Perhaps you are confusing average (mean) with median—that 61% is younger than the average age is irrelevant to the fact of the average age; do I need to show this algebraically?

                As to Manning,
                From RT:

                His jailers, many of whom also testified at Ft. Meade during the recent unlawful pretrial punishment hearings, largely considered Manning distant, withdrawn and isolated. Citing “erratic” behavior, some Quantico officials said Manning’s actions prompted them to keep him subjected to harsh conditions, at times stripping him of his clothes and keeping him out of contact from all other detainees.

                “Would you agree with me that if you’re talking with your jailers and you make causal conversation and then they use that casual conversation to take away your underwear from you, then you might stop talking to your jailer?” Manning’s civil attorney, David Coombs, quizzed Quantico staffers during last month’s hearing.

                Actually, it is somewhat pathetic, more pathetic than the scum that wrote Kubark, and clearly without the coherence of the Kubark writers, but the effect is about the same.

                Then again, the commander in question, Oltman, did confess to the speciousness of the Prevention of Injury claim:
                You make your recommendations, and we’ll do what we want to do.
                That was when he wasn’t claiming that he simply didn’t trust the psychiatrist.

                Is being held in a six by eight cage part of injury prevention?

                Kubark was exactly about using humiliation and degradation to destroy the person, and those authors were clear enough on that matter. It was the torture that didn’t leave marks by the torturer’s hands, yet it often proved lethal. Do you mean to tell me that you never read the Kubark manuals? If so, here:

                http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/index.htm#kubark

                Kubark would often lead to traditional torture. And that includes the ‘guinea pigs,’ of whom you’ve surely heard:

                http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/docs/jmcg74.htm

                I’ll take the water torture over the treatment he received, thanks.

              • Todd Scheller

                No, the Federal Data is not a good statistical sample of the entire population. It is only a good statistical example of those charged with Federal crimes. Thus you miss the radical differences in the Federal Policies. Then you want to use table 8, which would show the Mode or Median of the data, not the MEAN. It was my error to use Median, I did mean Mean in that last post.
                You gave the MEAN or AVERAGE of the Bureau of Prisons inmates only. There are thousands of other Correctional Agencies in the United States. Even Rickers Island is a Correctional Agency for the City of New York.
                Manning’s unlawful pretrial hearing? Since when has Russian Times been an expert on anything legal in the US? Funny, it complied with Article 34 of the UCMJ, which is part of Title 10 of the United States Code. This is the same type of LAWFUL hearing that was provided to Nidal Malik Hasan.
                So wait Manning admitted to making a noose out of his bed sheet, feeling Suicidal, and you think the actions of his jailers are criminal? They have an obligation to protect his life, that includes removing anything from his cell with which he might harm himself.
                A six by Eight cell is a standard single man cell in all Correctional Agencies. So it is standard housing for an inmate.
                KUBARK deals with INTERROGATION ans was written in 1963. The Guinea pigs were a BRITISH case, not a US case.
                Apparently you take being an idiot as your own form of torture.

              • Johan Meyer

                The prison psychologist says that his suicidal state ended long before his PoI status ended, and that status was used as ‘punishment’. The substance of the Kubark methods (and the British case’s methods) is the same as the treatment handed to Manning—especially for someone who is not (i.e. no longer) suicidal.

                Now, using that federal data that you provided, and the population pyramid, you can readily estimated the mean age—multiply the population of each age set with the proportion in prison, and use the middle age of each set, and viola, you have a very good estimate of the mean; use the top and bottom ages of each set for error bars.

                Signed—a ‘happy idiot’.

              • Todd Scheller

                You are a happy idiot. The Judge in the case said it was not torture. Where is the report of the Psychologist saying this? It is POI Status, not Pol. A Psychologist is a THERAPIST, not a Doctor, therefore not a MEDICAL officer, that would take a PSYCHIATRIST. The problem is that Manning did not present to the prison officials as non-suicidal. The #1 cause of death in incarceration is SUICIDE.

                The first Quantico psychologist to take the stand, Capt. William Hocter, said he first recommended placing Manning on prevention of injury, or POI, watch to avoid a repeat of that tragedy.
                Hocter said he recommended taking Manning off POI status on Aug. 26, 2010, roughly a month after Manning arrived at the brig.

                Notice that is a recommendation not a MEDICAL order. A psychologist cannot issue a medical order, a Psychiatrist can because they are an M.D.
                KUBARK is not a method it was a Cyrptonym for CIA.
                Math does not work that way, if 61% of those people are BELOW 39, then the MEAN will be below 39.

              • Johan Meyer

                How is Captain Webb relevant to the state of mind of Manning?

                Your mathematical error remains; as for your following comments, do the math. In your statement,

                The age is not 35 though. Nor is the other 39% the age of 60. This statement presumes then that there are ZERO people incarcerated that are not 35 or 60 years of age. We know this to not be true.

                you are skirting the line on affirming the consequent—if you were to next say that it thus follows that the average cannot be over 39, you would be well into that territory.

                Do the math. You might find that you intuition about where the average falls is a bit miscalibrated—one outlier can greatly change an average, and numbers closed to the median tend to have a smaller impact on the average than numbers away from the average. The clock is ticking.

                By KUBARK, I explicitly referred to the (CIA) interrogation manuals and their methods; this name is widely applied to the manuals, and far less widely applied to the CIA itself—few people outside the CIA would refer to the CIA itself as KUBARK, while most people familiar with the manuals refer to the manuals as KUBARK. Thus that issue is irrelevant—especially as I was clear enough by providing a web link.

              • Todd Scheller

                Johan,
                Capt. Webb goes to the usefulness of the PSYCHOLOGIST recommendations, not to Manning’s state of mind. Nice try to confuse the issue though.
                There are not 61% of those incarcerated at the age of 35, nor are 39% of the aged 60. This hypothetical does not prove anything. You cannot use fake data to prove your point. 61% of the mare under that age of 39 period, you cannot get to an average age of 39, it cannot happen.
                Not interested in doing the math for something I know will not work out in your favor.
                KUBARK was a CRYTONYM meaning CIA, it had nothing to do with a method. The manuals described standard methods of interrogation used at the time they were written. Imagine that. You providing a web link in what way changes the fact that KUBARK was used by the CIA as a Cryptonym for itself?
                California DCR Mean Age: 37 (See page 40).
                Texas DCJ Mean Age: 37.8 (See page 8).
                Maryland Inmate Average age: 36.2 (See page 40).
                Do I need to go through every state for you? What will those Means do to your hypothesis?

              • Johan Meyer

                I’ll reply on the prison numbers first, then on Manning.

                First, thanks for the data. For providing it, I’ll spare you the epithet.

                Second, I’ll report my own numbers, doing the spreadsheet—the average age is between 35.3 and 40.2 years, using the census data; the estimate using the mid-range as average for each age set is 37.8 years.

                Third, I’ll quote myself: Had the federal government had radically different policies from the states, the age profile might have been substantially different.

                Your numbers aren’t radically different, and the prison population is aging. I couldn’t resist challenging you on the 39 though.

                As to your closing question, I’d say it puts the original estimate, using the federal data, about two standard deviations above the central estimate. Which is to say that you are probably correct in the matter that the overall average is (about a year) below the federal average.

                Now, on to Manning.

                First, captain Webb tells us one data point, not a statistical evaluation of psychologists’ recommendations.

                Second, Manning’s state of mind is exactly what is at issue—if you can show that in fact the Quantico officers in charge of Manning’s fate actually claimed that they believed him to be a danger to himself after the psychologist’s recommendations, and that they claimed this in court, then you can claim that Webb’s case is material; ditto the matter of the (lack of a) medical order.

                The statement that I quoted, and I’ll quote it again, is suggestive that suicide risk wasn’t their concern:

                You make your recommendations, and we’ll do what we want to do.

                Key word is ‘want’—judgment of his psychological state seems plainly immaterial—were you really serious, you’d be claiming that the prison staff were better judges of his psychological state than the psychologist!

                As to KUBARK, I did explicitly mention that the CIA used KUBARK as a name for itself, which is correct. I did also mention that to most of the public familiar with the term KUBARK, the term refers to the manuals that I linked; even the articles in the HeinOnline-hosted legal journals use this name for the interrogation manuals in question, and the Boston Globe obtained the documents under precisely that name via the FOIA. You choose to distract attention from that matter, by insinuating that I somehow denied that the CIA called itself KUBARK—

                You providing a web link in what way changes the fact that KUBARK was used by the CIA as a Cryptonym for itself?

                To quote you, nice try. Specifically, nice try in attempting to confuse popular and official usage.

                Ditto ‘standard methods’—want to substantiate that claim? The manuals’ associations with the studies in the MKULTRA documents are well known—the interrogation manual even mentions the McGill study explicitly.

                Anyhow, arguing was fun; if you want to continue it, I’m not going to invest more than one post per day on this thread with you, as I have other obligations. I’ll be fair to you—this is the least confrontational that I’ve experienced you yet. Thanks for that.

              • Todd Scheller

                So you doing the math proved yourself wrong, the average is not 39 Thanks for playing.
                Captain Webb tells us about a specific Psychologist, the same one that was making recommendations about Manning. Sucide among incarcerated individuals happens at different priods. Most of ten in the first 48 hours of being arrested, Manning was in Kuwait then. Before each hearing, while Manning was at Quantico. Also, before and after sentencing.
                Official and popular useage in no way changes the Fact that KUBARK is a cryptonym for CIA rather than a interrogation method.

              • Johan Meyer

                Oh—wait—use the combined federal and state data that you provided—table 8, page 8. Come back when you’ve done the math, or I’ll call you an idiot.

              • Todd Scheller

                Genius, that does not provide you with an AVERAGE age of 39, sorry 61% below that age will not make the average that age.

              • Johan Meyer

                The consideration you mention (61% below) would have been relevant if the distribution were symmetric. The distribution, as per your own table, is not symmetric. If you don’t post the spreadsheet to prove your point, I will, and I will call you an idiot. You have eight hours. When you see your mistake, I’d be happy to accept your apology.

                Note: the average age of each group (18-19, for example) is between the minimum and maximum (18 years and 20 years minus a day). You can set minimum and maximum average estimates for each group (for calculating the minimum and maximum estimates of the average) accordingly.

                So you get,
                average_age=[ population[18,20) x incarceration[18,20) x average_age_estimate[18,20) + ... ] / [ population x incarceration ]
                For simplicity, consider first only the male population, as they will dominate.

              • Todd Scheller

                61% of them being below in relevant regardless of the Symmetry. FYI: That state proves there cannot be Symmetry. The Average will put half of them ABOVE and half of them BELOW the average age.

              • Johan Meyer

                Oh, and for brevity sake, if 61% of the population is 35 years old, and 39% is sixty years old, what is the average age? You should get 44.75 years.

              • Todd Scheller

                The age is not 35 though. Nor is the other 39% above the age of 60. This statement presumes then that there are ZERO people incarcerated that are not 35 or 60 years of age. We know this to no be true.

              • Southernfink

                All I can see here is that you are falling for the trap of replying to the troll here Johan….please take my advice and starve the troll.

            • http://www.byebyedemocracy.org/ kokanee1

              Oh you brave and noble defender of the status quo. Ideology aside, isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with our economy and our democracy?

              • V4Vendeta

                I love it when our crusader for “truth” comes to the rescue and corrects those who know more than he does while sleeping…

                Toad couldn’t see the forest for the bark beetles to save his authoritarian, boot-licking life. He is the ultimate hair-splitter. I once argued the US is an empire and cited their 1,000 bases as evidence and the fool argued ad nauseam that the correct figure was somewhere around 500- as if 500 was an insignificant number.

                Another time I claimed Obama always voted to fund the wars and he dug up the one time he didn’t in order to refute me- as if voting to vote war 90+% of the time wasn’t enough. What a colossal idiot. I have taken to ignoring 100% of his idiotic replies… good luck.

              • http://www.byebyedemocracy.org/ kokanee1

                Heh – sounds like I’d be wasting my time.

              • Todd Scheller

                I4Ignorant,

                What you know would not fill a thimble. Nor is it useful to humanity. Remember Socialism/Communism is being rejected all over the world.

              • V4Vendeta

                Todd Scheller: “Obama voted against H.R. 2206 which was Iraq War funding”

                Obama defends votes in favor of Iraq funding

                Senator Barack Obama yesterday defended his votes on behalf of funding the Iraq war, asserting that he has always made clear that he supports funding for US troops despite his consistent opposition to the war.

                “I have been very clear even as a candidate that, once we were in, that we were going to have some responsibility to make it work as best we could, and more importantly that our troops had the best resources they needed to get home safely,” Obama, an Illinois Democrat, told reporters in a conference call. “So I don’t think there is any contradiction there.”

                Obama’s comments represent a direct response to attacks launched by aides to Senator Hillary Clinton of New York, who have pointed out that despite Obama’s antiwar rhetoric, he has voted along with Clinton for some $300 billion in war funding since entering the Senate in 2005.

                http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/

              • Todd Scheller

                This again makes you right about him ALWAYS voting for the funding of the Iraq war how? Come on I4Ignorant, can’t you admit that you were wrong? His votes are recorded for posterity. It does not change the fact that you are wrong. A vote of NAY or a NO VOTE is not a vote for.
                What you did not know that WAPO keeps track of this? http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/o000167/
                Can you prove yourself to be a bigger dumbass?
                Because the Senate keeps track of it too. http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/a_three_sections_with_teasers/votes.htm
                Seems that even when you quote Obama he does not claim to have voted for Iraq war funding every time it came before the Senate during his tenure there.
                Did you realize that the vote on H.R. 2206 took place on May 24, 2007, at 08:26 PM, two months and two days after your article came out?
                List of Senate Votes on H.R. 2206:
                Akaka (D-HI), Yea
                Alexander (R-TN), Yea
                Allard (R-CO), Yea
                Baucus (D-MT), Yea
                Bayh (D-IN), Yea
                Bennett (R-UT), Yea
                Biden (D-DE), Yea
                Bingaman (D-NM), Yea
                Bond (R-MO), Yea
                Boxer (D-CA), Nay
                Brown (D-OH), Yea
                Brownback (R-KS), Not Voting
                Bunning (R-KY), Yea
                Burr (R-NC), Nay
                Byrd (D-WV), Yea
                Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
                Cardin (D-MD), Yea
                Carper (D-DE), Yea
                Casey (D-PA), Yea
                Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
                Clinton (D-NY), Nay
                Coburn (R-OK), Nay
                Cochran (R-MS), Yea
                Coleman (R-MN), Not Voting
                Collins (R-ME), Yea
                Conrad (D-ND), Yea
                Corker (R-TN), Yea
                Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
                Craig (R-ID), Yea
                Crapo (R-ID), Yea
                DeMint (R-SC), Yea
                Dodd (D-CT), Nay
                Dole (R-NC), Yea
                Domenici (R-NM), Yea

                Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
                Durbin (D-IL), Yea
                Ensign (R-NV), Yea
                Enzi (R-WY), Nay
                Feingold (D-WI), Nay
                Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
                Graham (R-SC), Yea
                Grassley (R-IA), Yea
                Gregg (R-NH), Yea
                Hagel (R-NE), Yea
                Harkin (D-IA), Yea
                Hatch (R-UT), Not Voting
                Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
                Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
                Inouye (D-HI), Yea
                Isakson (R-GA), Yea
                Johnson (D-SD), Not Voting
                Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
                Kerry (D-MA), Nay
                Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
                Kohl (D-WI), Yea
                Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
                Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
                Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea
                Leahy (D-VT), Nay
                Levin (D-MI), Yea
                Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
                Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
                Lott (R-MS), Yea
                Lugar (R-IN), Yea
                Martinez (R-FL), Yea
                McCain (R-AZ), Yea
                McCaskill (D-MO), Yea
                McConnell (R-KY), Yea

                Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
                Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
                Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
                Murray (D-WA), Yea
                Nelson (D-FL), Yea
                Nelson (D-NE), Yea
                Obama (D-IL), Nay
                Pryor (D-AR), Yea
                Reed (D-RI), Yea
                Reid (D-NV), Yea
                Roberts (R-KS), Yea
                Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
                Salazar (D-CO), Yea
                Sanders (I-VT), Nay
                Schumer (D-NY), Not Voting
                Sessions (R-AL), Yea
                Shelby (R-AL), Yea
                Smith (R-OR), Yea
                Snowe (R-ME), Yea
                Specter (R-PA), Yea
                Stabenow (D-MI), Yea
                Stevens (R-AK), Yea
                Sununu (R-NH), Yea
                Tester (D-MT), Yea
                Thomas (R-WY), Not Voting
                Thune (R-SD), Yea
                Vitter (R-LA), Yea
                Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
                Warner (R-VA), Yea
                Webb (D-VA), Yea
                Whitehouse (D-RI), Nay
                Wyden (D-OR), Nay
                What other lies do you have for us?

              • Southernfink

                btw ….it’s really windy in Hanoi today….;>)

              • V4Vendeta

                Victor Charlie…

              • Todd Scheller

                No, but then I am not a conspiracy theorist.

          • Johan Meyer

            I had two roommates who couldn’t afford internet, so it is probably partially the case. Thanks for the kind words :)

            • Southernfink

              I find the Internet is cheap enough while the expense of buying a decent pc can cost an arm and a leg ,nothing like a decent library with internet or even when I went overseas last year I noticed the internet Cafes are rather popular ,that with your room mates might have been a while ago…before internet became the way it is today.

              • Johan Meyer

                Saskatoon does have coffee shops with free wireless, but I haven’t seen internet cafes here (did in Toronto, though).